Are We in the End Times?
Jared:
That a lot of people seem to really want to know about that I think is kind of funny because I think it's an obvious answer, but it'd be interesting to hear your perspective on it.
Jared:
So are we in the end times, Pastor?
Pastor David:
We have been since Jesus proclaimed it. So for the last 2000 years we've been in the end times. But I know that the question is more eschatological in the sense that they're saying is this the culmination? Which is really the language. Culmination of the end of time. So I probably would want to... I could stop right there and just say, "Okay, that's enough." But that doesn't take up five minutes or whatever.
Pastor David:
But I would say if people are looking, and they are. They're looking for... Eschatology now is going to... In fact, it's been interesting to me that eschatology is driving vaccination thoughts. It's driving thoughts in relationship to our political structures.
Jared:
I was going to say, who's president, who's not president.
Pastor David:
It's all... And we bring these spiritual parallels and could this be the antichrist, could this be the false prophet? And we're constantly bouncing off this eschatology to frame how we're relating to our current situation. And as Americans, the thing that we are obsessed with, at least some are obsessed with, is the role that America plays in the end times. Is America a thing? Is America not a thing? What's God's role with America? Blah, blah, blah in relationship to this. So I think having an historical apocryphal or apocalyptic understanding of things is super critical.
Pastor David:
I think when we don't understand the scriptures historically and in context, then it gets really- It becomes the wild west in modern day eschatology. So for me, if you were to say, "How do you frame this?"
Pastor David:
I'd go to Matthew 24. I'd say if you were to look at the language of Jesus when he talks about the disposition of the end times, when he talks about... And so there's a dichotomy in his communication, because in one context, he's talking about the destruction of Jerusalem. This is what's going to lead up to the destruction of Jerusalem. And then he clearly goes into a what we would call a last day's language. So some of it is the set of, "Hey, when you see this coming, grab your kids and go." Because it's going to happen.
Pastor David:
And in those instances he's talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, but then he boils it down. He starts talking about what the church is going to look like. Starts talking about the general attitude of people. And we give way too much stock in my opinion. We give way too much stock to political and economic environments for our eschatological communications and understand.
Pastor David:
What you really need to look at is the spirit of men. Because what the spirit of man is prepared for then prepares us for the invitation and the insertion of the antichrist. So I know economic powers exist. I know political powers will exist, but we'll chase that stuff. This stuff has been happening for millennia. Economic collapses and rising, political collapses and... This has been happening for millennia. This isn't a new thing. It's just new to us.
Pastor David:
And so you really have to look at the spirit of men and because that's kind of the format. And look at the church. And he talks about how brother will be set against brother. Will betray one another. And he's talking about the church. He's talking about how the church relates to each other as one of the great markers. And you go to Thessalonians. It says basically and essentially the same thing.
Pastor David:
Go to 1 Timothy 4. Basically and essentially the same thing. Talking about how the church is being seduced. The church is believing a lie. The church is pursuing pleasures more than God, abandoning what we call Judeo-Christian values and attitudes. And this becomes the great format for end times expression.
Pastor David:
Having said all that, people are looking for me to make a statement on and where we are in that timeline. I would say based on Matthew 24, my reading of the general spirit of the age, I would say we are what I would call at the beginning of sorrows. So yes we are. We are at the front end of what we could understand as maybe the tribulation period. So we are being staged for it. And how long that lasts, I don't know.
Pastor David:
But if you were to ask me my political, or it's not my political, my perspective, my eschatological perspective, on where we are in this timeline, this end times timeline, I would say we are probably at the beginning of sorrows. And so there's going to be a lot of cultural confusion. There's going to be a lot of movement in the church world from devout Christianity to anti Christianity from within the body of Christ. There's going to be an abandonment of faith. There's going to be a movement towards a remnant. And those things are beginning to happen. And certainly in America, not true all around the world though.
Pastor David:
And we have to understand that our eschatology cannot be limited to our nationality. Our eschatology has to be understood within the context of the globe and it has to be understood within the context of the church. And within the context of scripture. I'm being broad. I'm being somewhat vague, but if you were to ask me, that's my feel. That's my interpretation. I'm not saying the Lord said anything.
Pastor David:
I'm not throwing a thousand scriptures at you, but that's just kind of my-
Jared:
And I think that's the healthy perspective to have. I think like the overwhelming theme of these always tends to be know your word better. You know what I mean?
Pastor David:
Mm-hmm.
Jared:
Read your scriptures, know what you're actually reading, understand the context of what you're reading. What you're talking about, where the difference between, and to be fair, to be clear rather, to give you context, I don't know a lot of the scriptures that you pointed out. Right? This isn't a subject that I've studied super hard, but I like that idea of what's for Jerusalem and what's for the globe. I've heard those scriptures get confused quite a bit.
Pastor David:
Well and I preached about it this past Sunday. Talking about the law of double reference. The understanding that God's talking about one thing, but he's also referring to something behind that. And that is a basic biblical understanding of hermeneutics, which is biblical interpretation. So the nuances of these things are why there's so much confusion in the area of eschatology. And I think what's happened is because we have built our Christianity around our eschatology instead of vice versa- It creates enormous disappointment with people. And they just say, "Well, the church and God and the word is flaky."
Pastor David:
It's because they've inverted the process and it's give them little... Here's what I would say. Having said all that, I think the most important thing for a believer in this season is to occupy, to stay on mission. And I would also say, and I think I could support this dynamically through the scriptures. I would say it's going to get worse.For believers. And if you ain't got the stuff, you better get the stuff.
Pastor David:
And if you can't handle a little persecution, then you better find out what kind of metal you got. You better dive into your relationship with him. You better get close, get prayed up, be in the word and understand you're not here to survive this. You're here to demonstrate the glory of God. And you're here to be on mission. And that is until God changes it.
Pastor David:
And so my mission doesn't change. It doesn't matter whether things are good or bad. My mission doesn't change. And the church is just waiting to get out of here. And I'm telling you, quit thinking that way. Stay on mission.
Pastor David:
And don't let your eschatology drive whether you should or shouldn't engage the gospel, should or shouldn't witness, should shouldn't stand for righteousness, should or shouldn't stand for justice. That those are things you have to do and might even become the thing that becomes the problem for you. But we are citizens of heaven before we're citizens of anything else.
Pastor David:
That's my sermonette.
Jared:
It's so good. It's so good. Like you said, if it's only going to get worse, strike right now where you can. You know what I mean? And right now you can strike everywhere.
Pastor David:
When I say worse, I'm talking in the context of if we are truly in the beginning of sorrows and approaching the end of the end time, that season, that final block of time, that becomes the highly intensified expressions of the end times. If that's the case, it's going to get worse. As it relates to our comforts, our liberties, our freedoms, our this, our that, our others.
Pastor David:
So then the question is where are you going to find that? You're going to find it with compromise. And look to the world to secure you, compromise your soul. Or you're going to stand for God and accept whatever that means.
Jared:
Get a little uncomfortable.
Pastor David:
However that will translate to you.
Pastor David:
And so I'll give you one more verse. Matthew 24. Matthew 24:14-15. Jesus said... This is the missional aspect of what I was talking about. It also is an indicator for when we can expect the return of Christ. You ready for this?
Pastor David:
This will be my big mic drop. Jesus said, "This gospel of the kingdom must be preached in all nations as a witness, and then the end will come." So the end means the conclusion. So you have to land on what does that mean? Does that mean the gospel message or does it mean something more? And I'm going to suggest it's got a dual meeting. It is the proclamation of the gospel message, but secondarily and I think actually more significantly, it is the word witness itself is martureo. It must be demonstrated, lived, and proclaimed with and solidified by the martyr's blood. And then the end will come. And that's in every nation.
Jared:
So what does that mean for America? Because we're not there yet.
Pastor David:
Exactly.
Jared:
That's good, Pastor David.
Pastor David:
I don't know if it's good, but it's-
Jared:
But I mean, it gives a lot of context.
Pastor David:
And you'll notice that Jesus used the mission and the blood witness of that mission. As the indicators for when the end comes. Where the whole world has been given over to the world system. And the nations that have adhered to Christian values and the worship of God, abandon it. And the church seals the gospel message with their own blood.
Pastor David:
And if you look at Revelation, you'll discover that the thing that releases the plagues, the thing that releases the judgments, the thing that releases the vials is the voice of the martyrs rising up saying, "How long, O Lord, before you avenge us of our blood?"
Pastor David:
And he says, "I'm done." In one instance he says, "The cup's not full yet." The cup's not full yet. So it's morbid. It's uncomfortable. But I could document a few nations where the blood of the martyr has not been spilled as the witness of the gospel message. And I think that's going to be... So I think if as an American, you might want to consider that. And that your faith might cost you something. And having stood in firing squads, having been thrown in prison, it's the real deal. And our brothers and sisters around the world have paid with their lives for their relationship with Jesus and we're concerned about a mask.
Pastor David:
And we're concerned about a vaccine. We're concerned about... And I'm saying that those aren't preemptive things. But we are so distorted. Upon the things that really matter.
Jared:
I think that was an important place to land because especially when you were talking about persecution earlier. It's like we haven't really arrived even at base level.
Pastor David:
I mean, there's nuance, there's elevation of persecution. We're seeing it in our school systems. We're seeing it with parents. There's churches that are beginning to suffer. The government's beginning to... Because of their anti-Christian sentiment, it's beginning to impose.
Jared:
Sure, There's some shaking up and some discomfort.
Pastor David:
it's starting to happen. People are in jail for unrighteous reasons. You don't hear anything in the media about it. But you won't.
Jared:
That is great, man. I really appreciate that insight. I really appreciate that context, especially because it was very scripturally based, which I find this conversation gets away from the scriptures very fast and dives into kind of like the theories of what may or may not happen.
Pastor David:
That's a great perception of what actually happens. People get mired in the theories.
Jared:
Yes.
Pastor David:
And they forget they're talking about theories.