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Can you lose your salvation?



Jared:

Someone asked if you could renounce your salvation by disbelieving in God. And I think it'd be interesting to just talk about renouncing your salvation in general. What that would take, what that looks like if it's possible at all.


Pastor David:

Well, that's a good question in the sense of, once again, theology does play into this. If you're a devout Calvinist, then your position would be, that you were never a Christian. You had a converted mindset that then decided to un-convert. So you never had a true, regenerative, born-again experience. If you're Armenian in your bend, then your attitude would be that it is absolutely possible that you could do that and that you could recover that. Now, where I land is in the middle of that.


Pastor David:

And so I've not found a theology book on this, but maybe I ought to write one one day. Although, I'm not qualified. But I'll just read it for you.


Pastor David:

And so I'm going to take it to Hebrew 6. And we'll just use this as kind of a launching pad because the writer of Hebrews warns about this. He warns about this actual question. Kind of the renunciation, the abandonment or the loss of faith. And so, see, here's my deal. You have to find the balance of all scripture. So here's a question for you. Is salvation temporal or eternal?


Jared:

I'm more into the idea, especially right now, of the daily salvation, right? The-


Pastor David:

So I have to get saved every day?


Jared:

No.


Pastor David:

So what do you mean by that?


Jared:

So that would make it eternal. Right?


Pastor David:

That would what?


Jared:

Make it eternal.


Pastor David:

If you have to get saved every day?


Jared:

No, no, no. I'm saying-


Pastor David:

That you don't have to get saved every day.


Jared:

That you don't have to get saved every day makes it eternal. But I think there's a daily salvation process that you should go through.


Pastor David:

Working out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Sure, But I'm asking-


Jared:

But the moment of salvation-


Pastor David:

I'm asking, at the point that you are truly regenerated. Born again, wash the blood of Christ, Passed from death to life. Is that eternal or is that temporal?


Jared:

I would think that's eternal.


Pastor David:

I would agree with you. And the Bible would agree with that. Unequivocally.


Pastor David:

We're not resurrected to temporary life. We've already got that. We are given the gift of God as eternal life.


Jared:

Definitely.


Pastor David:

Through Jesus. So eternal means ...


Jared:

Eternal. Forever.


Pastor David:

So you don't get temporary life. You don't get life until you blow it. That's not consistent. With the true born again experience.


Pastor David:

So the question then is, and this is where we talk about fruits of repentance, fruits onto salvation. Can you have a true born again experience and not demonstrate any of the characteristics of that born again experience?


Jared:

Yes.


Pastor David:

And the reason I would suggest no is because, are you perfect? No. But you are going to begin to demonstrate, right? My baby is born. Okay? Does it demonstrate the traits that they're my child? Well, a few. You might see some personality traits begin to develop within months. But immediately, not necessarily. But as that child grows in faith, you are going to begin to see the demonstrateable characteristics that relate me to my family. And not just environmentally. DNA.


Pastor David:

So understanding that a born again believer begins to be that. Might not happen instantly. But it's that day to day thing. Where it's this executional expression of salvation. So many people, they, " I've known Jesus for 30 years." And they still don't demonstrate anything.


Pastor David:

Well, Some point, you know them by their fruit. Right? And Jesus confronted that. But we're talking in the general terms, we're talking the theological terms. So when you get to ... And this is a classic one and a lot of people will fight this and a lot of even Calvinists will fight this. But let's just look at what it says in Hebrews six. It says that, and I'll just start in verse four. Where it says, "For it is impossible for those who are once enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift, the heavenly gift, which is eternal life." "Have become partakers of the Holy Spirit." So it's not like they're just witnessing it. Or they just felt it. They've had this work of the Holy Spirit.


Pastor David:

So he's not defining something that is just a casual mental, " I like what they stand for there for, therefore I'll stand with them." He's talking about "No, they've had this supernatural experience." They've partaken of that. So he's defining it in those terms. "And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. If they fall away," so they'll circle the "if." As though it's not an option. Well, if it's not an option, why is he talking about it? I don't say if, if there's no possibility for if. So then the question is, how do we get to if.


Pastor David:

What is that? So if they fall away, so to renew them again, to repentance. So here's my point. And I'm oversimplifying this and just understand that. So if you truly get saved and you can fall away.


Pastor David:

You ain't coming back. That's the point. The point is, it's impossible to renew them again unto salvation.


Pastor David:

That's what that verse just told you. So he's sharing that there's a possibility, but you only get saved once. You don't get saved multiple times. You can be backslidden. And God is, what? Married to the backslider. Backsliding, where I have a broken fellowship. But that does not preclude that I'm still His son or His daughter. My fellowship is askew. I'm not relating to God like I should. It's a prodigal son situation. He's still the son, but he's just not living in the house. He's still the son, but he's sleeping with the pigs. He's he's still the son, but he's partying with prostitutes.


Pastor David:

But he's not so broken off in relationship that he can't come home. And so God's married to the backslider. But backsliding is the first stage of getting to what I would call spiritual suicide. Or becoming heretical. Or where we literally become alienated from God. You can't get there without backsliding first. Backsliding doesn't mean you're there. And so, where's that point? Where is that point that this is possible? That this is possible.


Pastor David:

That I could be in broken fellowship with God so badly that I am no longer quote unquote saved. And did I decide that. Well, in a way, yes. And I don't know where this place is. I don't know where it is. That's God's work. That's not my work. That's how God sees it. Not how I see it. Can I so blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Can I so alienate myself from the life of God that I become, as Roman one talks about, I am given over. To the unclean thing and ultimately, there's no way back.


Pastor David:

And so people struggle with that, especially in the Armenian world where they're like, "Well, I've blasted the Holy Spirit and what am I going to do?" I was like, "First of all, if you've blasphemed the Holy Spirit, you would have no consciousness or concern about blaspheming the Holy Spirit." Your conscious is literally seared with a hot iron. So there's too much language in the New Testament. There's too much language about the potential for this. That it shouldn't be ignored. There is, I think, and I think it's there to remind us that, it is God that saves us. I can't save myself.


Pastor David:

But can I so sabotage what God does, can I so resist what God?


Pastor David:

Once again, you get into all the nuances of it. And it becomes quite complex. But I would air to the idea that there is the possibility. There is the possibility that it exists. And that, in that possibility, God would know. And God would make that decision. Where God would just ... Take his spirit out of it.


Pastor David:

And you can so grieve him that he's like, "" Now, I don't know where that point is. I don't know if anybody's ever reached that point. But there's Biblical descriptions of these things happening. And even Paul talking about, "Hey, you got to ..." There's an interesting scripture and I'm kind of jumping all over the place now.


Pastor David:

There's an interesting scripture in Corinthians where Paul, there's basically an ungodly relationship where a guy is sleeping with his mother-in-law or his mother or something. It's an incestuous relationship. And openly. Doing it in church. And Paul's like, "What are you guys doing?" "You need to do something about this." And they're kind of like, "Well, they know the Lord and they're trying to find it out, figure it out." And Paul, he's like, "No." "That's not how we deal with this."


Pastor David:

And he uses incredibly strong language. He says, "I want you, as if I'm there doing it." "I want you to deliver his body, his soul, to Satan." He uses this language. "Deliver his soul to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that he can find repentance."


Pastor David:

So what's motivating Paul? Is to make sure this guy doesn't keep going down a road- That will ultimately turn into the loss of his soul. He's saying, "Take him out of the church. Take him out of the covering of church. Put him outside." "The tabernacle." "Put him outside the house." "Make him vulnerable." "To the spirit of this world." "And let Satan do his work on him." "So that it will remind him how good it is to be in the presence of God."


Pastor David:

And then you get to second Corinthians chapter two. That's in first Corinthians five. Get to second Corinthians chapter two, something interesting happens. The guy's knocking on the door, trying to get back in the church. They won't let him in. They won't let him in.


Pastor David:

They're like, "No, no, no. We kicked you out." And Paul's like, "What's the matter with you people?" He's like, "I told you to do this so that we can this result."


Jared:

So that he can come back. Exactly.


Pastor David:

"And now that he's there and he's repented and he's broken." "You guys don't want to walk in forgiveness and restoration. Come on, guys." "Get your act together." "Bring him in, get him restored. Otherwise, he's going to lose heart." And this could be the demise of his soul.


Pastor David:

So once again, there's this guardianship. That is being exercised by Paul over this man's soul. And he doesn't care about the destruction of his flesh. As long as his soul gets corrected.


Pastor David:

So if he's going to be saved and he doesn't have anything to worry about, why does Paul care? Why does it matter to Paul?


Jared:

Because it's actively destructive in his life and in the life of the church. Right?


Pastor David:

Exactly. And if you let this thing go and grow- And so once again, that's why we have to take stock.


Pastor David:

That's why we do communion to remind ourselves, balance ourselves against the cross. And say, "Hey, am I really walking this out like I'm supposed to?" "Am I meditating on the right things? Am I pursuing holiness?" And I'm not saying it as a work to be approved of salvation. But as an expression that I am saved.


Pastor David:

So I've kind of lost track of the question at this point.


Jared:

No, yeah, yeah, I think that's ...


Pastor David:

But I think the question of renouncing your salvation, it's not that easy. Because then you're the source of your salvation and you're the God of it. And you're not You're not.


Pastor David:

It's not like, "Well, I believed I confessed." "With my mouth. I believed in my heart. I got saved that way." "So I guess I could do the same thing. I can unbelieve with my heart and I could renounce with my mouth and I'm out." And it's not quite that simple. It's not quite that simple. But I think the possibility.


Pastor David:

The Bible, the New Testament, it's not just Hebrews. There's indications in Corinthians. There's indications even in Jesus' own words. There's indications as well as in Thessalonians, that there's probability. There's a probability. And I just don't know where that line is. You don't know where that line is.


Pastor David:

Only God knows where the ...


Pastor David:

Just don't play with the line. Just don't play with the line. That's kind of the warnings of Hebrew.


Pastor David:

Don't play with this. Don't play with this. If God didn't show mercy on those who broke the law in the first covenant-


Pastor David:

What's our excuse? How's God going to relate to us? And then he says, for our God is a consuming fire. I guess we better take this more seriously than we thought.


Pastor David:

Live your life. Celebrate your life. Knowing that God's the author of it all. And live your life like it depends on you. Even though it doesn't. Just to keep yourself in check. Keep yourself in the saddle. And don't make it works. Don't make it about works.


Pastor David:

There's this glorious liberty realizing that I'm saved and I can be secure in that salvation. I'm not going to make a mistake and God's not going to cast me out. I'm not going to sin. I could even say, "I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm not going to follow Jesus. I'm not going to go to church. I'm not going to do this." That doesn't mean that you're unsaved. It doesn't mean that. It means you're in a bad season. Means you're in the wilderness. Means a lot of other things. And if it keeps going, it can take you someplace you don't want to go.


Pastor David:

But it doesn't mean that at that moment. And that's why I love the long suffering of God. He sees it and we can get into a lot of other subjects, but.


Pastor David:

I'm being very cursory. I'm shooting a large subject in a very, very succinct amount of time. And I know I will get a lot of theological blow back, so.


Jared:

That's That's the risk you take when we Set these cameras up and start filming this, but I think that's-


Pastor David:

Yeah, if you give me a couple weeks to prepare. And get my act together. Get my notes and get all the scriptural support, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And balance it with more things. It would be probably a lot tidier. But that's not what this program is.


Jared:

No, I thought that was great. I think that's a very balanced approach. I think that's a very balanced idea, which is, again, what you want to go for with subjects like these.


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